Nate Seltenrich 0:01 Yeah, so what I'm working on is kind of a big comprehensive look at disposable food packaging, and specifically, assessing the safety from a chemical perspective and the sustainability from a full lifecycle perspective, in terms of both sourcing and disposal. So taking all those things into account, to take a look at currently available disposable food packaging, and some of the more innovative materials and products that are out there, and helping to equip others to evaluate them. And all of that in the context of what's going on this year with disposables; COVID-related reasons. And so maybe you can help me flesh that out a little bit. But from what I've heard, obviously, it's that disposable use in general is going up globally. But I've also heard that, at least in the United States, that the trend among like the large restaurants, chains, at least fast food; it seems like some of the fast casual restaurants who are at least talking about PFAS are maybe still concerned about sustainability, but I've heard at least in some cases, maybe with fast food that there was kind of a pivot back towards some of the conventional plastics and papers for different reasons. This spring and summer, I heard that availability of some of the products, the greener products, went down, or they weren't able to ramp up production of those to match the increased demand. Alicia Culver 2:06 And who is your audience, and what are you basically seeing? Is this, like a big guide, is it an article? Like, what are you shooting for? Nate Seltenrich 2:17 It's actually both. So this organization that I'm writing it for is a nonprofit journalism organization called Orb Media, and what they do are large packages that are actually designed to help other media outlets, and newspapers, and magazines around the world to cover certain subjects. So we're actually providing resources for that purpose; and also an evaluation; kind of a proposed way of evaluating food packaging and finding local stories. So it does involve more traditional stories or articles, but it also involves providing resources so that other media organizations can cover these issues. Alicia Culver 3:11 Okay, great, so let me just say, Responsible Purchasing Network is a network of thousands of state local governments and school districts and universities; so people who are really trying to figure out sustainable purchasing holistically. We kind of do soup to nuts, everything from policies and programs, and then we take a deeper dive into food service ware, and I have been mostly on COVID. I've been working on like just infections and things like that, and some of the PPE-related issues; but you know, obviously have seen. From the government perspective, I don't work as much with restaurants, though we do get involved with some of the green business programs, and obviously, the restaurants, many are closed, so there's a lot more takeout and so with take out, there's more disposable food service ware, and there's also some concerns. Judith Bank is really the person; I don't know if you've talked with her; but she's really been; I think she testified in front of Congress about how overblown it is; the concern about people using reusables So she would be a good person to talk to. What I have some insight into is just; what are some of the products I know. We had worked; it's been about 10 years for us kind of studying this issue and realizing, wow, there's these toxic chemicals. I mean, it came really about 10 years ago when somebody I was working on a project with said yes, the manufacturers disclose that there was P.F.O.S, what does that mean? And I was like, oh my god; so we discovered this, and we have been talking to manufacturers, we've been talking to other NGOs, and we've been working through state local government contracts to try to figure out, how do we actually write specifications for these where we can get the information we need; so through disclosure, but also to 'spec' the right products, so that companies that are doing the right thing, are going to know what it is that we're looking for. And we realized that pretty much everybody was hanging their hat on BPI. So we did a lot of work with other groups; I'm not going to say it was the only one; obviously we worked with Center for Environmental Health and with various toxics groups, to try to have conversations with the various different stakeholders. Arlene Bloom, I don't know if you've talked with her [XXXX], the Green Science Policy Institute. She had a stakeholder [XXX] a couple years ago, I actually was on a panel with Worldcentric... They're in Petaluma, right? Nate Seltenrich 6:13 I think they're headquartered in Rohner Park, which is the next town up. Alicia Culver 6:17 Right, right. So Aseem Dos would be a good person to talk to about what's going on with Worldcentric. So basically, what we did is we said, look, we really want you to get this stuff out of here; not just, you know, that [XXX] stuff, but all of it, because it's very suspect the evidence is starting to show that yes, maybe it doesn't [XXX] accumulate as much, but those chemicals are actually smaller, and I remember one of the scientists saying that, because the newer substitutes - which we would consider a regrettable substitute - is smaller chain molecule; actually can enter the bodies of, and they found it like in rats; so it actually can be absorbed more in the body and is more able to cause harm than even some of the bigger Teflon chemicals. So we've been definitely on board saying, we just need to get rid of the whole class of chemicals, because they're all going to be proven to have problems. And so a lot of effort was put on talking with the certifiers; so the primary one being BPI, and BPI did agree to change their certification, you probably know all this right? And it was interesting, because it was actually, literally like 15 minutes before we did a webinar on this topic, that was under environmental health, when they faxed over their statement, 'we're going to change'; because we had done two webinars on the same topic and we had talked about this on the first one, and the second one, they said, hey, we're going to change our standard. And so I guess for a year, they gave the companies a year to change. So we kind of look only at products; we look at what's on the market now; and then evaluating what's coming onto the market in the future. And obviously, stuff that has been coming in the market has been slower, but there's still; in certain categories of disposal food service, where there are definitely still products available. Some of them never really had a lot of PFAS. So things like cups, coffee cups, and things which are a high [XXX] item, those typically haven't had PFAS added to them because they need to hold water. PFAS is really more of a grease resistant treatment as opposed to a water repellent as much. I mean, it's a water repellent on like a raincoat, but it isn't strong enough to be able to enable somebody to have a cup of coffee, and probably you'd have exposure issues there too. So in terms of compostables, a lot of the alternatives are paper lined with PLA, for example, and I know there's been a lot of discussion about PLA, but I always point to the plastics reportcard, scorecard; do you know what I'm talking about? Clean Production Action? Nate Seltenrich 9:36 No, I don't know if I've seen that one. Alicia Culver 9:38 Okay, so Clean Production Action has done like the chemical footprint project, where they've looked at different types of applications, different chemicals that compare, and they did an analysis several years ago, called the Plastics Chemical Footprint Project, and I can send you a link to it. They have a really great graphic that would be great as part of your tool kit or your article, or whatever it is that you're putting together. It shows, if you're comparing all the different types of plastics; when you look at it from a life cycle perspective; you know which ones are the worst. Obviously, PVC is really bad. So there's the ones that are really bad, and polystyrene, of course, looking at, you know, the chemicals that are input and chemicals and waste, and then they have others that are in the middle, and then they have ones that are known to be the least impactful, and PLA is actually one of the least impactful plastics from a chemical perspective. So from my perspective, if there's some product that is compostable, and also if it could go into the recycling and not be a problem too, that would be great. I understand the issue with PLA if it's just a clear plastic cup; you look at it and you can't figure out is this PET or is this PLA, so that creates a problem for recyclers and for composters. But if you had something that was a very thin layer of PLA over paper for a cup, and it was okay to go into the recycling and okay to go into compost, then you don't have to worry about whether people actually get their sorting correct. Because either place, it would be okay. So when we've looked at alternatives to; as you probably are well aware, it sounds like you have a lot of knowledge on this topic already. The products that have the PFAS in them are typically clamshells, and paper plates, and then paper trays if you're like at a school or something. So those are the ones that really have used stuff. So we were one of the first entity that started testing. It got to be a bigger project, and we turned it over to Center for Environmental Health, but we did a lot of testing at the very beginning. You probably know about like, [XXXXXX] and his whole test and everything. Are you up on that? You know what I'm talking about? Nate Seltenrich 12:31 Well, I did talk to the Center for Environmental Health about the testing they've done. Is that related to that? Alicia Culver 12:39 Yeah, they kind of took it over. I mean, originally, basically, where it came out of was that it can be expensive to test. But this guy Graham Peasley who is now at Notre Dame has come up with a very inexpensive test to determine whether something is like heavily fluorinated. And so he does this test and so we sent in a whole bunch of things. I think it's supposed to have been like five years ago, and we basically determined that it was molded fiber. That was the primary thing that has had the PFAS in it. There's also some paper that's treated wax, waxy type paper, paper wraps and things like that, but molded fiber; basically every single product that we tested, that was molded fiber, tested with very, very high concentrations of fluorine, which meant that they were very, very, very likely to have PFAS in them. And so, when you're thinking about how do we get rid of PFAS, what's that transition; we were like, okay, we need to find alternatives to molded fiber. So there's been a lot of effort to try to figure out. Some companies have worked pretty hard to try to figure out; the way that it was manufactured in the past was they'd have a big flurry of this say, sugarcane, waste fiber and then they would put the chemicals literally in the slurry and then press it out. So the companies have tried to figure out, okay, is there just a drop-in replacement for that or do I need to put; do a whole new different process? So we have tried to keep track of what are the alternatives to these products. So if somebody says, well, I'm a restaurant and I don't want to use a PFAS-containing product, what can I use? Now there are some clamshells that are BPI certified now, and you probably are aware of these. These are Eco-Products. You know, the vanguard ones? Nate Seltenrich 15:01 Yeah, but I believe they say they use a proprietary replacement chemical. I'm curious if you know anything about that. Alicia Culver 15:17 I mean, BPI requires some; they had to make sure that it isn't going to harm plants when it breaks down in the compost. And so they're one of the entities that evaluates the chemical formulation of the products. And they would have like an agreement with BPI. I'm pretty sure that they also have gone through the Clean Production Action green screen. Because everybody's like, what are you using instead? And they're like, well, let's at least make sure that it goes through a process that everybody feels comfortable with; that there isn't any gonna be any persistent toxic chemicals or liquid vinyl and stuff like that. So my understanding is that they either are in the process or did already go through the Clean Production green screen. Now, the person that referred me; isn't she from Clean Production Action? I'm trying to... Erica, isn't she with Safer States? I'm just trying to remember where she's from. The person that recommended that you talk to me. Nate Seltenrich 16:34 It wasn't Erica. I haven't spoken with anyone named Erica. I'm trying to remember who it was though. Oh, it could have been Laurel. Alicia Culver 16:44 Yeah. Laurel. Yeah. And she's with I'm trying to remember which group she's with. Nate Seltenrich 16:48 She's with Silent Spring Alicia Culver 16:50 Silent Spring, well, they work very closely with Clean Production Action. So what we've been telling the companies is that they should go through this green screen and have somebody; have that organization Clean Production Action evaluate their product, to make sure that there's no regretable substitutes. And I know that they have said that they would do that. I don't know if they actually have done that. But I would probably put you; have you talked to anybody at Eco-Products? Nate Seltenrich 17:23 Actually, it's funny you asked, I did email them like 10 days ago, I think, and I just this afternoon got a response. Alicia Culver 17:32 Sarah Martinez, is that who you've talked to or...? Nate Seltenrich 17:35 I just emailed their media address and heard from someone named Laura Walton who probably does their press, I assume. But yeah, I'll follow up and I'll ask about that sort of test, the green screen. Alicia Culver 17:52 So let me just see, I'm just looking, I have an email from from Sarah Martinez and the test report from the green screen. So they did the green screen back at the end of December 2019. I could forward this to you. It's the results of their green screen test results. So yeah, we want to just make sure they're not going oh, this is what it is, but then, you know, it's like a whack-a-mole situation where you're okay, that's bad; but then they switched over to this, and that there's no regretable substitutes. So what we've been universally telling companies is that they should get their products tested through the green screen process, which is run by Clean Production Action, and apparently, they did do this and they have their... I would have to read this. I can't read and talk to you at the same time. Anyway, they've gone through it; you can ask them about this and if you; what's your email address, and I'll forward you this report that they have. Nate Seltenrich 19:13 Yeah, well... I emailed you before if that's easier, or I can again, or I can tell you now. Alicia Culver 19:22 Okay, yeah, just give it to me, just in case I probably have it if you send it to me, but... Nate Seltenrich 19:25 Yeah, it's [Nate dot Celt Sm. e l, t, as in Tom. Which is the first four letters of my last name Seltenrich, so Nate dot Celt, and that's at gmail.com.] Alicia Culver 19:46 All right. So when we're trying to find products; I mean, we're obviously anxious for more companies to have stuff come onto the market and we've been trying to understand why it's not happening as quickly as we would want to see it. We actually did have a meeting with the head of BPI, Rhodes, and we asked him, you know, what's going on? Why aren't these products coming onto the market as quickly as we want? And he said, you know, some of it is COVID-related; the labs are kind of jammed up; some of the supply chain issues. So we're just hoping that you know, things are going to happen faster, but everything is slow these days with COVID. So in the meantime, we tell people, okay, well, you know, you have a clamshell, you want to have something that's compostable, and doesn't have PFAS in it, and is on the BPI list. Well, maybe you could try boxes that are paper-lined with PLA. So there are things that we can point people to. If they had a bowl, we can say, well, you know, does the bowl need to be shaped like a bowl? Or could it be more like one of those 16 ounce containers where it's up and down; it's a little sheet piece of paper; doesn't have to be molded. And so we can find alternatives to those. Plates are a little challenging, there are paper plates, obviously; so there is the Eco-Products' products, but there's not as many of those as we would want to be on the BPI list. We keep checking it to see what is available, but I would say for takeout, really it's clamshells, and if it's really wet, they can use boxes; they look like Chinese takeout containers, for example. One that's on the list is West Rock. Have you seen their products? They have various lines of products, some of them have recycled content in them, some of them are compostable. I mean, somebody doesn't need compostability if there's no composting infrastructure that they can use. So we typically tell people, first of all think about where it's gonna go, and if you have composting, then it can be worth it to have compostable materials. If it's not compostable, then maybe you would want to have recycled content instead. So you're actually just using few, less virgin materials, and maybe it isn't compostable, but at least it doesn't have Teflon chemicals in it. So there are alternatives there. There are some interesting; you had asked about interesting things that are coming on the market. I have seen some information about, like blown PLA. Do you know what I'm talking about? Nate Seltenrich 23:10 Yeah, I've seen that. Alicia Culver 23:12 So the advantage of that is that it's more like styrofoam. So it would hold temperature more, and some of the companies actually claim that it's more easily compostable. So there's Earth Mays, for example; it's one of the companies that's on the BPI list. And they're saying because of the air pockets, that actually makes it much easier for it to break down in the compost pile. That's their claim. But it does have a BPI certification, or doesn't have PFAS, and it's not styrofoam. It's got a better chemical footprint. I think that those products are; I don't know how widely available they are. I think they're just, starting to come on to the market. We keep hoping. I mean, I don't know have you heard anything from World Centric about their... Nate Seltenrich 24:14 Well, I was gonna ask, don't they have a PLA-lined clamshell now that's like the alternative to the PFAS clamshell. Alicia Culver 24:24 So I'm gonna go on to their website. They have always had a PLA-lined one, but it was a lining one that has PFAS in it. Nate Seltenrich 24:35 It's called leaf? Alicia Culver 24:38 The leaf one? Okay hold on, let me just go to their website. Let's take a look containers. I do remember seeing this. The question I had was; it looked like it was maybe only lids at the time that I was looking at it. Okay so I'm on their website... Nate Seltenrich 25:03 Go to... I just found it myself. It's worldcentric.com/leaf and they have a page there. Alicia Culver 25:13 I mean, Aseem the head of; do you know Aseem Dos? He's the head of World Centric. He has said that they would be willing to put stuff through the green screen as well. Okay, so it looks like they have this. So the question is, so if we go to BPI world, is it through BPI yet? So there's just a hold up of like, you know; they have to get FDA approval, they have to get the BPI certification; and if it's supposed to break down within 90 days, it's going to take time for it to to go through that process. So, if I am on BPI, and I look up World Centric.; I haven't checked it in a couple of weeks; I know that they've been trying. They've been pushing really hard to get these products. You've searched the BPI website before, right? Nate Seltenrich 26:19 Yes, and I just checked, I hadn't checked for them and I'm looking at it now; does not seem to have their molded fiber products on here. So it looks like that is not certified yet. Alicia Culver 26:31 Not yet. Yeah, that's it's still this thing. Yeah, they have the clear clamshells, but the problem with the clear is, again, it gets mixed up with the PET and also it doesn't hold hot food as well. I mean, for somebody who's using, who doesn't have composting, recycling of plastic is rare. I would say it can be done maybe with a clear plastic cup, but when you start to get into something like a clamshell, even if it's technically recyclable, you probably know this, it's too contaminated to actually get recycled. Polypropylene is interesting; I looked at it for some hospital clients that we were looking at because they actually get a lot of polypropylene in the blue bag waste. And so they were interested in; oh well, we already send that stuff back to get recycled, maybe we could just do our cups that have that; because if you look at the plastic's footprint, polypropylene has a lower, smaller chemical footprint than PET. Kaiser asked about this at one point, and so we looked into it for them. So they were thinking about switching over to polypropylene because then it could; it also is more versatile because it can hold hot food instead of just cold food, which PET can. So when we've looked at environmental preferability, we've looked at recyclability, compostability, recycled content or other contents. So if somebody can't compost something, we can look at, well, is there anything that is compatible with your recycling system? So we look at that, and nothing can be recycled or composted; well, can you at least; if you're gonna have coffee cups, use a coffee cup that has 10% post-consumer recycled content, because there are some that have recycled content. So we just look at what are the opportunities or can the paper at least be FSC certified? So there's different ways that people can define environmental preferability and so we look at all those different options when we're helping people to try to figure out what options might be available for them to improve the environmental profile of the product. Now, I have a spreadsheet; it's been a while since I've looked at it, but we were trying to take each category and say, okay, for this, here are some environmentally preferable options; so just try to keep track of this information and also there are several states that are at different stages of banning PFAS and foodware. Washington State is one, New York is another, and so some of them have been driven by the fact that they've had PFAS drinking water; contamination problems. So they really have been pushing on this, and then firefighter foam and things like that. But the laws sometimes will say; but there need to be alternatives. So we've been just tracking, especially for clamshells and plates and cups, what's available on the market? We just got derailed a bit by the COVID situation, because we thought things were going to be coming on first or second quarter of 2020, and of course it didn't happen as quickly as you wanted. But you could talk to Aseem Dos at World Centric and ask him where they're at. You could talk to Rhodes [XXX] at BPI and ask them, is it likely that things are going to start moving more quickly through their process? Because I think BPI is a bit of a bottleneck right now, so we have to decide, do we say, okay, we basically believe World Centric, that their product is compostable, and it doesn't have PFAS in it, and let's consider that to be environmentally preferable knowing that they're working as hard as they can to try to get that through the BPI process. Nate Seltenrich 31:29 Yeah, I will, at the very least, I've been looking at these brands and products, and I'll see how far I can go investigating it, and the time I have as far as the status. But I just wanted to ask also about the Foot Print one. I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that. That's the only other thing I've come across as far as PFAS-free, clamshells, and they have teamed up with Sweetgreen, and I reached out to them as well, because Sweetgreen, I think, committed to phasing them out by the end of this year; PFAS clamshells. So I'm trying to find out the status on that, and it looks like, based on the BPI website footprint, clamshell is not certified either, and they don't reveal what replacement they use, and I haven't heard from them yet. Alicia Culver 32:23 So I think you could help to be an echo chamber for what the NGOs are asking for, which is, we want it to be BPI-certified, and we want them to have gone through a green screen process and gotten approval; like there's no serious chemicals of concern that they're using in order to get to where they're at. We also want them to test the products. One of the challenges I remember being told by Aseem was that; because the whole factory; well, a lot of these products are made in the same factory, so if you're trying to test something, the PFAS can get into the process water, and it also can be like, a mold release agent. So even if you say, okay, you know, Marty Melville if you know him, he said, the difference between the chemicals in the pancake versus it's on the pan. So it's like, you can take the the PFAS out of the slurry, but then maybe the mold release agent has it, or maybe, they have to press a bunch of water through to get it to go through these molds. And if the water hasn't completely been replaced to have clean processed water, they can be picking up stuff from other places, and it can still get in there. And I think that slowed one of the companies down because they were trying to test it, but they couldn't get a clean test because the process wastewater still had some PFAS in it from old runs. I mean, this stuff is just very, very, very persistent. So I think there's just been a number of roadblocks. Companies have tried things; to like laminate; they've tried things to spray on; all of those things are going to, unfortunately, be more labor intensive than just like dumping some chemicals. The original process was a one-step process; if the chemical's in, you press it out, it's done. Whereas if you're going to do like a box, you have to have a sheet paper, you have to laminate it, and that's a two step process which then increases the price. So they're trying to figure out what are the alternatives that are going to work; that are going to be aesthetic; is it going to have the same level of performance? Those are some of the issues that they're dealing with. And what the replacement is; are they sure that that's actually going to be healthy and safe. Trying to think if there's anything else... I mean, do you hear people talking about things like palm leaf and stuff, but it's just not so practical. So I've really been pushing to see what else is really out there; that can be a practical cost-effective substitute. And then you have this bigger issue of like, how do we get the supply chains to be reliable? On government, I could put it on a multi-state contract and get it so that any state or local government or school district can have access to that contract and use it. But each restaurant is kind of on their own. I mean, there is the Green Restaurant Association, I don't know if you've seen them, and they have been approving products, but there needs to be something to help businesses to be able to access these products reliably and cost effectively, and there's still like a gap within that, I think. Nate Seltenrich 36:36 Yes, clearly no easy answer yet. But maybe someone will come across one and that will be replicated. But yeah, I did look at the palm leaf. It looks promising, but I agree that like, it seems pricey; and then also, just from the practical standpoint of you're collecting palm leaves from a palm plantation and pressing them, and they may not have the shelf-life by the time, they're shipped to them. Alicia Culver 37:03 It doesn't look sanitary to me, I'm sorry. I looked at them and was like uhh... I mean, they're not going to be practical for a restaurant that's going through so much stuff. But I do think restaurants need to have some flexibility of like, okay, maybe, you know, it isn't exactly shaped like a clamshell, but it still is a box and still could work. Obviously different food products have different requirements. Some stuff is really wet, so they need to make sure stuff is gonna work. They want to make sure people don't burn themselves and so there's a lot of different things that they are dealing with. Now, I did just say something about Burger King. I came up with like a reusable hamburger box. Did you see that? Nate Seltenrich 37:57 No... Alicia Culver 37:59 I just saw this somewhere. Let me see if I can dig it out, and I'll forward it. It was like a newspaper article on something. Are you mostly looking at clamshells? Are you also looking at wraps and things like that? What's your purview? Nate Seltenrich 38:19 Um, well, it's trying to look at disposable food packaging in general, I'm trying to be all encompassing, I guess. I mean, we're including cutlery and cups and straws. And as far as like some of the plastic wraps and films, I've found some cellulose-based products that have a plastic look and feel, that you can see through like for the cover of fresh salad. So yeah, we're trying to apply the same criteria of chemical and sustainability to these different types of products. Alicia Culver 38:59 So do you guys have a grant to work on this and develop this toolkit? Like who's your clock? Who's the client? Nate Seltenrich 39:10 I mean, I'm a freelancer. I'm not on this on staff. But yeah, I mean, essentially, this is their model as a journalism organization. I don't know specifically all the funders but they've done a number of packages with the similar type of framework on different stories, they're usually health-oriented; health policy and sustainability. That's kind of their niche and so they just wanted to cover food packaging, and I've actually written about food packaging and environmental health and plastics a bit before so that's how I ended up working with them on this. I can't say specifically what led them to settle on this topic, among all the options, but I certainly feel it's quite important and have been for a while, and it's so complicated because I just keep learning more. There's so many nuances, and it's very, very hard for the average person to understand these different considerations and trade-offs. Alicia Culver 40:21 And they're shocked, because the stuff that is the sugarcane waste, or the World Centric stuff; they're shocked because this is the green stuff. I remember one of the hospitals telling me like, oh my god, I just worked so hard to get my hospital to get off of styrofoam and onto this compostable stuff, and it just gut-punched me telling me that it has Teflon chemical, liquid Teflon chemicals impregnated into this; I just found out there's [XXX] 95, have liquid Teflon PFS chemicals. That's one of the things I'm looking at right now. The reason I'm asking; I mean I don't know what your timeline is, but I could try to pull up this spreadsheet that I have, where it's just like, here's the products that are wrapped, here's the products that are this. We've done some testimony to Washington State saying that they really should be focusing on certain products, and that there's lots of available products and what's on the horizon. Of course, that didn't end up panning out as quickly. but we did try to work on a spreadsheet, and I could try and see if it's available to get published as like, you know, here are wraps, your boxes here, and these on BPI, and like, you just are tracking spreadsheet for various different things for PFAS alternatives. Nate Seltenrich 42:08 Yeah, and I'm trying to create something similar, just with my own resources, and that will be part of the package. But if you do have something like that, I would definitely review it and maybe make changes to my; I mean, maybe it'll have some information or products I didn't come across, or at the very least, if you were willing to make it public, we could provide that as another resource. So either way... Alicia Culver 42:38 We've done some guides. If you don't mind, I'll, in the next two days, send you some things. We did a whole comprehensive guide a few years ago on how to buy compostable foodservice where we just put a thing in there that said, avoid PFAS chemicals. It was really before we started testing, and we just said, you know, avoid Teflon chemicals. We didn't exactly know how to tell what did, and it wasn't until this test came out; but basically, we have some some states and local governments that are just saying, we're not going to buy any molded fiber unless it's absolutely tested positive, and now it's like it has to be on the BPI list. But it's challenging. There's just like; when you get to plates, there's not that many products. There's more options with clamshells only because you can do these boxes, but they are more expensive. So we're hoping it's going to work its way out soon and I know people are looking at different materials. World Centric was also looking at different types of fiber that would; like there's this silver grass, miscanthus that they've been testing which is used and has inherent grease resistance to it. It's used for oil spill cleanup, but I don't think it got them 100% to the performance level that they wanted. But I know there's a lot of research and development going on, so I'm hoping things like the leaf brand from World Centric is just gonna, one day show up on the BPI list. We also think that [XXXX] is doing some work in this area, but they're not as collaborative. They sent a letter saying that some of their trays and stuff were free of PFAS, but none of their products are on BPI and they haven't gone through the green screen or anything, so we really don't know what they have available. So we just keep checking the same way. Let me find out if I can share that information with you; my spreadsheet. If it's comprehensive, you can use it as long as we get attribution for that. Nate Seltenrich 45:13 Yeah, sure, please let me know. Alicia Culver 45:16 Yes, why recreate the wheel, right? Nate Seltenrich 45:20 Yeah, I mean I know that a lot of smart people have been looking at this over the last couple years, and so I'm trying to learn from them just for our purposes; but we want to use those resources as well, that are existing, and share them. Alicia Culver 45:43 Okay, so I'm sending you right now, Sarah Martinez from Eco-Products; her information, including her test results from the green screen. So what do you feel like you need the most and then I'll let you go. What do you most need? Nate Seltenrich 46:19 Well, nothing urgently, because I'll be working on this over the next few weeks. There was the plastics report, or scorecard? Alicia Culver 46:29 Okay. Yep, yep. Nate Seltenrich 46:32 And maybe you can just send me whatever you have handy, and I can follow up later, if there was something else we mentioned that I can't find. Alicia Culver 46:49 Yeah, and I can study my PowerPoint from when we did the webinar. So that might help and have some [XXX] how we're thinking about it. This is right before BPI announced that they were going to do this, but it's more of background. Okay, so you're gonna work on this for the next couple of weeks; and the footprint; okay, so I will get you the chemical footprint information. And do you have a good contact at World Centric? Or do you need that? Nate Seltenrich 47:22 I haven't reached out to them. It may be good to have. If I'm able to, I can check about check about the BPI progress perhaps. Alicia Culver 47:36 Yeah, maybe ask them what's going on from their perspective. We used to have like every three months a call with Aseem but I haven't talked with them. I've been working on other stuff, but it would be good to know. It does look like he they've developed the line and they feel comfortable enough to have a whole line of it. So that's great. I think that's great progress. I think they're just waiting for their BPI certification to go through. And I'll give you a contact; Aseem Dos is the name. Let me just I can just look it up for you; hold on; his email. Okay, aseem@worldcentric.org. Let me see if I have a phone number for him; phone number is 707-241-9191. He's in Rohnert Park. That may be his cell phone. I'm not sure, but that's the number that he gave me. And feel free to shoot other questions over and I'd love to see what you come up with the end; be happy to look it over for you if you want. Nate Seltenrich 49:12 Okay, thanks so much for your help. I'll definitely reach out if I have any questions about any of this or other related things that we discussed and I'll keep an eye out for an email. Thank you so much for your time and your help. I really appreciate it. Alicia Culver 49:28 Okay. Good luck. Nate Seltenrich 49:30 Thank you. Take care. Enjoy the rest of your day. Appreciate it. Bye bye.